Oil Burner system trips once/day R8184G4009
Our system is tripping once or twice per day. Always when a temperature recovery is attempted - sleep to wake or when return temp kicks in after a leave time. If the temp difference is 2 degrees or more , the system will trip. If I set the wake or return to 1 degree more than the sleep or leave temp, then there is no trip (but we are warmer ) When the system does trip, it *always* needs me to hit reset once and the flue/exhaust motor kicks in but the burner won't fire, and it trips again - but after that step, always - and within ~2 minutes - a second reset always starts the burner for however many hours we need to be at that temp. Been the same for 6 days...exactly the same sequence works. Ambient outside temps dont seem to affect this - its been as cold as 5F and as warm (ha!) as 33F, same symptoms and sequence always applies. Rheem Imperial High Efficiency Oil Furnace Beckett AFG Burner Honeywell R8184 G4009 Controller Honeywell 32207651-002 Rev a Thermostat Any advice much appreciated; after multiple breakdowns our friendly heating engineer gave up after 5 visits - then I found doityourself.com and that got us back (almost) online to this point - you guys are great ! I can't give you any specific advice but I can tell you that the R8184 trips only on a flame failure, either real or simulated. That means that either the burner doesn't ignite or if it does the control doesn't know it has lit. Things that will cause an oil burner to not light include a worn nozzle, worn or misaligned spark electrodes, improper air setting or nozzle placement, improper fuel pressure, dirty fuel filter(s), air leaks in the fuel line, water in the fuel and a dying ignition transformer. Things that could cause a primary control to trip even with a flame are a dirty cad cell (flame detector) or a failing cad cell, damaged wiring between the cad cell and the control and a failing control. Hopefully one of the people that works on these things everyday will be along to add to this post. The one thing that jumps out at me is the fact you have to hit the reset twice. When the burner fires, do you get any smoke or rumbling from the furnace? Tell me about the fuel system: 1 or 2 copper lines from the tank to the burner? Where is the tank in relation to the burner (specifically distance elevation differences)? There is no rumbling or smoke when the burner fires - and thats always on the second reset press. The first reset press is a kind of non-event - almost like the system is completing an interrupted cycle where all it does is run the exhaust fan, trips and then it always restarts normally and undramatically with the burner on the second press. It helps to understand that the R8184 trips only on flame failure. I have a new R8184 and CAD sensor right here now, but haven't opened anything up yet as things are running ok with no trips since I have set things to the 67/67/67/68F cycle. But all is not well as one single experiment with a 66F setting yesterday caused a trip when 67F was called for. The tank and furnace are both in the basement, with the base of both at the same elevation. Right now and since I have set things to the 67/67/67/68F cycle the tank has been full, so - from the top at ~5' above floor level to now ~4.5' above. The single line from the tank is ~25 feet long, single copper line in a cement cover along the outside house wall. From some other threads I saw temperature a concern, so I checked - the line is at ~48F, and the basement air temp is 50F Is this single line off the top or bottom of the tank? Has the fuel filter been changed recently where is it in relation to the tank burner? How old is the line? Single line from the bottom of the tank; last filter change unknown but probably ~ 2 years ago; filter is close to the tank outlet - 1 foot from tank. Line is probably original from new - 1988 house build date, unchanged since we came here in 1997 for your replies What make model of furnace burner? Can you take some pictures of the burner controls then post them on photobucket.com or similar site? You can post a link to the pix here. This is not going to be an easy one to troubleshoot. If I were to take a gambling guess as to if it were electrical related or fuel related, I'd pick fuel related. The key, as Grady mentioned, is the fact it ALWAYS comes on at the 2nd attempt. I would not think for any reason electrically it could 'know' if it was the 2nd, 5th, or 7th attempt. If something was only marginally electrically working, you'd think at least some of those times, it take 3 times. But yours is always twice. What could make sense is some leak in the line, or somewhere that allows fuel oil to flow back from the pump and you recover it in 2 attempts -always. And the reason it stays running is it then never loses it's prime again. And the reason it does not start up again after stat 'set back' is for reason already stated; that the fuel oil leaves the pump again, maybe due to pinhole type leak somewhere, allowing air in. No expert here, but just some logic thinking. Sounds to me like your losing prime, you always have to hit the re-set twice. If the fuel filter has not been changrd in 2 years, then niether has the nozzle or pump strainer. It is IMHO a fuel problem. My advise would be to have a good annual maintenance/cleaning done. I too am leaning towards fuel but if it were a clogged filter or strainer it should lock out during a long run then recover during the off cycle since as I understand it this is a gravity fed burner. I was thinking maybe a fuel solenoid but Rheem doesn't normally use them. Helpisontheway: In your first post you mention an exhaust blower. Is this furnace power vented instead of going into a chimney? On the first reset, does the burner motor run? You mentioned exhaust fan, is it a power vent system or do you have a standard chimney? Its a power vent system; on the first reset, the burner does nothing at all - just the vent kicks in. A few days experimenting (and your leaning towards fuel ideas - thanks) I have tried this: 1. After trips in the past 3 days (one in the am, one in the afternoon, and one when the thermostat was on Hold) I now know that after the first reset, I dont have to wait until the exhaust fan runs through its cycle to 'Off'. While the exhaust fan is still running, after that ~45 second control box delay, a second reset push will see the burner light up - 100% of tries in the last week that always happens, though I'd been waiting until everything shut off until I did the second reset. 2. On the Burner, our friendly engineer had paid some attention to an adjustment screw. Now after your mentions of fuel priming - is it possible that the (i understood flow control) screw could restrict flow when a restart is called for ? I opened (anti-clockwise) the screw after I read your fuel ideas ~24 hrs ago, and things seem more stable. - only one afternoon trip today - thats the only one in 36 hrs I certainly hope you didn't adjust the fuel pressure without a gauge. The fact the burner motor does not run on the first reset tells me there is a venter problem. My guess is the draft proving switch is not closing allowing power to the motor. For some reason, possibly a restriction in the proving switch tube, on the second reset the switch closes, power is provided to the motor, the burner fires. Unless you have the specs, knowledge, tools to test my theory, I suggest you present it to your servicer. Other ideas, guys? Originally Posted by Helpisontheway ....on the first reset, the burner does nothing at all - just the vent kicks in. Grady, yes, without the combustion motor going, it does sound like you are more onto the answer than we are. Helpisontheway, In order for the service tech to be able to reliably test my theory, the burner is going to have to be in a locked out condition. I suggest you run this theory by the service manager see what he/she has to say. If there is agreement the venter is probably the culprit, you will have to leave the control locked out until the tech can get there. OK, now I understand a lot more than when I posted the thread starter ! Thanks...been running on off the whole weekend, but mostly on, same exact behavior still, which is good I think. There is some light corrosion on the outside of the vent motor housing area, and would you believe the proving switch tube (since installed I'd guess) has a wonderfully badly done 90 degree bend in it that'll surely impede flow with a few extra bits of dirt in there. I'd say that the open diameter through the bend is ~30% of the tube diameter So I'm up for the blocked tube theory too. On the one visible end there's a swaged connector to the switch; is there just an open tube end into the vent that I can detach and clean out - looks like some ducting to disconnect and I should be able to access ? If the weather time permits, disconnect that tube take it to your local plumbing supply house. They should be able to fix you up with a new piece of tubing fittings. If you can supply the make model of the venter I can probably find a link to service information. Now it feels that we're close I would like to try to nail this tomorrow after work. The venter is a Tjernlund SS1. My home zip is 18078 and work is 18195 if it helps where I should go to get parts. Good news is that I know bend pipe properly Now just because I'd already bought the parts, I replaced the R8184 and flame sensor - same exact symptoms with all new electricals at the furnace....feeling much more intelligent now than when we started On Tjernjund's site, under sidewall venting, there is a list of manuals including several for the SS-1. Tjernlund Products, Inc.. Check also where the tube connects to the venter the draft proving switch. On the venter end you can clean out the fitting with a piece of wire. Be very careful working on the proving switch. You don't want to damage the diaphram. If you would take some pictures, post them on photobucket.com or similar site, provide a link here, I might be able to see something. The VAST majority of problems I encounter with venters is directly traceable to installation. There is a Sid Harvey at 1206 N. Plymouth St. in Allentown (18109). Not sure if they will sell to a homeowner or not but if they will, I'd bet they would have the tubing fittings. If I remember right, the tubing is 1/4 O.D. aluminum (pilot line tubing) the fittings are compression. You're spot on with the tubing Grady, its 1/4 aluminum. I'll call Sid tomorrow am to get new parts, but now I'm also curious about all the other gunk that might deserve a good clean up that area to stop recurrence. Got it when you mention the switch end and being careful. I'll take some pics before I start and if I find something unexpected I'll post them. Like an earlier poster said , this has been a good one to trouble-shoot especially for a newbie like me Well its been a couple of days since I checked out the draft proving tube - and there it was - the end all plugged with soot and 'something'. I cleaned it out thoroughly and replaced it. For others that may reference this post, the tube was only available as a spare part with the switch but luckily I didnt need either. I skillfully (!) bashed out the 90 degree crimp it had to something close to the tube's normal diameter, then.... I set about checking for more soot and the something that wasn't quite black. The vent was very end to end full of some dark brown rust like stuff and a little soot that probably had 12 years of build up. I loosened it up to vent outside with the system running - there was a lot of it, and I'm now up for a weekend replacement of the whole vent just to be sure. So here we are, two days and nights of normal running. Starts, stops and 65 night back to 67/68 days every time ok. Thanks for all your patience and advice I like a challenge once in a while. It helps to keep me on my toes. You might want to try removing the tube flushing it out with brake or carb cleaner then either warm or blow it out with air to make sure it's dry before reinstalling. Glad I was able to help.
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